I’ve included a few of the comments from other people just to give you a feeling of what the situation was like.
Do you see design at all, in things?
Like when you enter a mall, can you tell the difference between a sauce pan and a toy gun?
Do you see that sausage is different from oranges?
Good for you, if you do. That means you can recognise how things are made, for their purpose.
Now try this, using that same capability: try seeing the sun, and grass, and how they go together.
Then add animals, and worms and cockroaches.
See? They fit. Good girl!
Now, see how plastic cups and pans don't quite fit into this natural system.
All good?
Congratulations, you're a muslim.
You have just recognised how all comes from One, and even gained wisdom to see what belongs and what doesn't.
Now, it's time to recognise that the Designer is Loving, and bow your head in love.
Complete. you are now you.
Just regained your mind. Always had it. Just needed to realise. Like wake up to it all.
If I understand you correctly you are saying that if we look around nature we can see that things have a purpose or a function and that this shows that there is a designer? Is this what you are saying? I want to make sure that I am understanding what you are saying.
I've been thinking about things with a purpose showing that there is a designer. I've been thinking about things that I see around me with a purpose such as cars, airplanes, buildings, computers. Almost everything I see has more than one designer. Even the simple things like a pencil have people to fashion the wood, other people to get and fashion the tin to hold the eraser. People to get the graphite, etc. It takes a lot of people for something as simple as a pencil. How do we know that there weren't a lot of designers of the universe. I'm not sure that my question makes sense and wanted to get your thoughts.
You make an interesting point, if I understand you correctly, about my examples of things that required multiple designers or builders are really just examples of people assembling things out of existing raw materials and therefore doesn't suggest multiple designers of the universe. It gives me something to think about. If I misunderstood, please let me know.
SKT, I want to recognize the truth when I hear it. I want to have true beliefs. But I honestly don't know if I can. How can I recognize the truth? What does the truth look like?
4/26 SKT - Only total idiots joke about islam, Sarah Haider , have some sense now, andgrow up, andreadup, and be a woman now, not a retarded paki-texan who haslost her mind..
4/26 Other Commenters (OCs) - Learn English.
4/26 SKT - Gretchen Craft-Stranges like your compatriot Sarah Haider, you don;t see. You are both from the land of the deaf, blind and dumb.
4/26 OCs - Why does joking about Islam make you an idiot? Oh, I know. Because all those peaceful Muslims will threaten your life.
4/26 SKT - NO muslim does that, by definition. Only foolish people get flared up. Islam is the way of life. ALL oflife: plants, animals, humans, planets, everything runs on islam. ISlam is the software,if you will. ISlam is being natural obeying natural law. NOw what kind of person makes fun of the way the food pipe works? Or the eyes work? Or people work? Or about staying clean? Or loving one;s mother, respecting people? That is why making jokes about islam is stupid. It;s just silly, that;s all. Exactly the kind of thing one would expect from a complete fool like Sarah Haider, the Tex-pak. It's a separate species.
…. many other hostile posts by other commenters …
4/26 OCs - ^ this is definitely one for the terror watch list. Good grief, what a fundamentalist whack job.
4/26 OCs - The world of delusion built by religion is so powerful over the mind. It's so disturbing to see.
…. and so on …
4/26 - SKT - your fingers are real, so are those of another creature , let's say a mammal. So are the fins and gills of fish. Do you see all has the Same designer?
Do you see design at all, in things?
Like when you enter a mall, can you tell the difference between a sauce pan and a toy gun?
Do you see that sausage is different from oranges?
Good for you, if you do. That means you can recognise how things are made, for their purpose.
Now try this, using that same capability: try seeing the sun, and grass, and how they go together.
Then add animals, and worms and cockroaches.
See? They fit. Good girl!
Now, see how plastic cups and pans don't quite fit into this natural system.
All good?
Congratulations, you're a muslim.
You have just recognised how all comes from One, and even gained wisdom to see what belongs and what doesn't.
Now, it's time to recognise that the Designer is Loving, and bow your head in love.
Complete. you are now you.
Just regained your mind. Always had it. Just needed to realise. Like wake up to it all.
4/26 OCs - Must be your hijab blinding YOU…
… many other similar comments …
… it’s at this point that I decided to break in. Keep in mind that while I was corresponding with SKT, he was continuing is verbal battles with other commenters. Over time these subsided and it became just him and me on the thread …
4/26 Tom Gibson (TG) - SKT You bring up some very interesting points. I think that you might be knowledgeable about Islam, but I'd like somebody I could ask questions who wouldn't get upset or think badly of me. I'm not sure that you're that person. I'm just trying to determine what is true. Can I ask you questions?
4/27 SKT - Tom Gibson yes please do TIm. I'll be very very gentle here. I do this meanness just to get attention. It;s like to bust the egos that float here, so that we can have a nice decent gentle conversation. The fire is just to blow away the ego insects, that;s all. To show them that that can be handled too. ut really, of course, we'renice poeple here, we were made nicely, and we can each each other questions. In fact, that;s exactly what they;ve been doing too, in their own antagonistic way Above, in the thread, each has really asked a question, wrapped in ego, which is just cute, basically. It;s lik a defense mechanim they (we people) have. So it;s okay. Fire.
4/28 TG - SKT I'm happy that you are willing answer my questions and clear up any confusion I might have. I'm sorry for all the anger from other commenters. I'm not sure that this is the best place to have a conversation, but we can try.
If I understand you correctly you are saying that if we look around nature we can see that things have a purpose or a function and that this shows that there is a designer? Is this what you are saying? I want to make sure that I am understanding what you are saying.
4/28 SKT - Yes Tom. Evolution is a part of the design. We evolve by design.
4/28 TG - SKT Thanks. I always like to make sure I understand what people are saying. I learned when I was in school that it easy to think that you know what people are saying when you really don't. Too many times I thought I understood perfectly what my teachers were saying but then during exams it would turn out that I didn't understand. Now I try to make sure.
I've been thinking about things with a purpose showing that there is a designer. I've been thinking about things that I see around me with a purpose such as cars, airplanes, buildings, computers. Almost everything I see has more than one designer. Even the simple things like a pencil have people to fashion the wood, other people to get and fashion the tin to hold the eraser. People to get the graphite, etc. It takes a lot of people for something as simple as a pencil. How do we know that there weren't a lot of designers of the universe. I'm not sure that my question makes sense and wanted to get your thoughts.
4/30 SKT - Tom Gibson it does make perfect sense, and I love your neutrality- childlike way of looking at it - that is the design - that is excellent. now we will get somewhere. Unless we think like a child, we don;t get there. I mean with biases and grudges and already made up notions of identity, we end up belonging in camps, which keeps us from thinking about things objectively, like children do. I love the feel hungry? Grab an ice cream model of thinking. Mama around? Let her get you the carrot and broccoli salad, instead of the ice cream. In short, what is natural, works for children. If they get one argument, they will go with it; itf they get a better one, they will go with that, with (usually) no ego problems. Ego gets in the way of thinking, so this is excellent: why weren't there many designers? Ok so let;s think..
4/30 SKT (10 minutes later) Tom Gibson now i'm thinking out aloud: lets take pencil, that;s the classic example; yes, it takes someone to dig the graphite or whatever it is they putin the nib, and I remember this from one of those cartoons they make these days to explain things. SO the pencil example was a famous one. SOmeone trying to explain that everything is made up of many people;s input these days. SO that;s excellent. Can we step back a moment? Like 50,000 years ago.Then we didn;t have pencils, we had stone and rock, earth and clay, iron and bare basic metal. Things still worked; people still worked. SO already, we have entered an era where things WERE, that is, they existed, and they weren't made by corporations, be it staedtler or lego or toyota. lets think more: so they had to come from soewhere. Rocks, earth, seas, come from somewhee, that is one. That is clear, because of the design of things: each thing, hasatoms in it, all is made up of it;s constituent elements, atoms, quarks, energy, vibrating or being a string or doing it;s thing. Each, does it;s own thing, but each is essentially doing the same thing. Only the compositions are different The sun and water are both energies, of some sort. How are they different, we know, but what are they, essentially, we don't know. We are here only to enjoy them, to give thanks, andto witness that we WEREgiven these things.Nowmy takeisthat we don;t MAKE things, we ASSEMBLE them. MErely. SOmeone who 'makes' a pencil is not making anything, he cannot even create an atom of let;s say shit, to be rhetorical. We only, ONLY, assemble, and that too, only under the guidance of nature. Like when a mama 'makes' a baby, she doesn;t really make the baby, she only enjoysnatur;es transformations when they happen inside her, when papa has contributed in his way. Same goes for a cake: we don;t make cakes, we bake them, AFTER having ben given the egg, the milk, water, wheat, whatever else goes in it. Then we watch. We actually sit back, and watch, often we don;t even seeit, we take for granted that what will happen in the oven is exactly the same as what happened earlier.These are physical natural processes that are repetitive, so we get accustomed to them, and stop thanking for them. IT;s all GOd, in the pencil, in the honda civic, in the many poeple who assemble them, on the assembly line or with their hands.God assembles the energies in deproportions, both in the hands of the makers, and of the robots, and the brains of the idea makers, who draw plans for the pencil and the caron the drawing board. It;s all only GOd. We are only manfestations of God. Everything is a sign of God, when one gets to think about stuff. You and I, are only signs of God. SO God says, if you want to get to know ME, get to know yourself.
4/30 TG - SKT. You praise me, but I think that you should be praised for taking the time to respond to questions in an open manner. I especially appreciate that you are willing to think out loud. I think it is 100% ok for people to reason things out when asked a question, and understand that other considerations may arise later that may change the answer a bit. I feel that you will understand the same with me.
You make an interesting point, if I understand you correctly, about my examples of things that required multiple designers or builders are really just examples of people assembling things out of existing raw materials and therefore doesn't suggest multiple designers of the universe. It gives me something to think about. If I misunderstood, please let me know.
5/2 TG -
SKT,
I don't know if you're still listening or not, but I still have more questions. Maybe you're still listening and able to answer.
I was thinking about about how humans only assemble things. We didn't create the raw materials that we use to assemble things. But how do we know that there aren't multiple gods that created the raw materials? If we're saying that anything that can be used with a purpose must have been designed, how do we know that there weren't multiple designers.? How could I go about convincing my Hindu friends that they are wrong?
SKT,
I don't know if you're still listening or not, but I still have more questions. Maybe you're still listening and able to answer.
I was thinking about about how humans only assemble things. We didn't create the raw materials that we use to assemble things. But how do we know that there aren't multiple gods that created the raw materials? If we're saying that anything that can be used with a purpose must have been designed, how do we know that there weren't multiple designers.? How could I go about convincing my Hindu friends that they are wrong?
5/11 SKT - Tom Gibson thank you.
I am sorry for the delay.
Why one and not two, three or many?
Who would order around which one?
If there is one God, God orders everything.
If there are two, they can't be Gods, because God isn't subservient to anyone.
Do they distribute their work?
No. God does all the work. God is self-sufficient. Needs no help.
God manifests Himself in many agents, like the angels, prophets, you and me.
But is any one of us God?
Nope.
So you can tell the hindu who doesn't jnow God is one, that One is God.
And also the christian, that God is one, and the other two are manifestations of God: the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
And the sunni and shia : one God means you listen to one God, who forbade from differentiating into sunni and shia.
They don't listen; that's how they become sunni and shia and kill themselves.
In obedience to God (Islam), there is no such thing.
In the history of people's stupidities, there is. Also trinity, idols, etc.
I am sorry for the delay.
Why one and not two, three or many?
Who would order around which one?
If there is one God, God orders everything.
If there are two, they can't be Gods, because God isn't subservient to anyone.
Do they distribute their work?
No. God does all the work. God is self-sufficient. Needs no help.
God manifests Himself in many agents, like the angels, prophets, you and me.
But is any one of us God?
Nope.
So you can tell the hindu who doesn't jnow God is one, that One is God.
And also the christian, that God is one, and the other two are manifestations of God: the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
And the sunni and shia : one God means you listen to one God, who forbade from differentiating into sunni and shia.
They don't listen; that's how they become sunni and shia and kill themselves.
In obedience to God (Islam), there is no such thing.
In the history of people's stupidities, there is. Also trinity, idols, etc.
5/11 TG -
SKT, It's good to hear from you. I thought that you had moved on.
I don't understand why if there is more than one god why there would have to be one who orders the other(s) around and why they couldn't work in perfect cooperation. Could we imagine gods like that?
If you don't mind me asking, but I'm wondering how sure you are of these things; that there is a a God and that there is only one. On a scale of 1 to 100 where 100 is absolutely sure with no doubt what-so-ever and where 1 is full of doubt, where would you place yourself.
I do appreciate the time that you have taken to speak to me. It is a pleasure.
SKT, It's good to hear from you. I thought that you had moved on.
I don't understand why if there is more than one god why there would have to be one who orders the other(s) around and why they couldn't work in perfect cooperation. Could we imagine gods like that?
If you don't mind me asking, but I'm wondering how sure you are of these things; that there is a a God and that there is only one. On a scale of 1 to 100 where 100 is absolutely sure with no doubt what-so-ever and where 1 is full of doubt, where would you place yourself.
I do appreciate the time that you have taken to speak to me. It is a pleasure.
5/12 SKT - Tom Gibson of course. Sure. You are always welcome.
God can do everything.
Why would He need cooperation?
God can make everything, and break everything, in a second.
God needs no help from anyone.
God helps everyone.
God is the fountain of life.
All life comes from God.
God cannot need any cooperation from anyone.
The prophets of God have been made for their own benefit, and for ours.
God does not need the prophets, nor the angels, any creation.
God is the Creator.
God gives. God does not need cooperation.
We need God's cooperation smile emoticon
Operation, rather.
Only God operates. The rest only watch.
That's what we're made to do: to watch God's works, to say thanks, appreciate, and feel good about ourselves, about God, about all of God's creation, and be happy, really. Give thanks, pray, share the happiness, in giving to others, multiply the hapiness.
Light upon light. Like God says in the Quran.
How sure am I?
I know this.
Do you know there are things? Like pencils, the world, cities, children, mothers.
You know they are. How can sure can you be? 1-100?
I just know this is the truth.
Now do I remember it all the time, is the question.
Like when I'm mean, I'm forgetting, clearly.
When I was unable to answer your question, it was because of forgetting God, in a way.
When we know, we do things on time. smile emoticon May God bless you, Tom smile emoticon
God can do everything.
Why would He need cooperation?
God can make everything, and break everything, in a second.
God needs no help from anyone.
God helps everyone.
God is the fountain of life.
All life comes from God.
God cannot need any cooperation from anyone.
The prophets of God have been made for their own benefit, and for ours.
God does not need the prophets, nor the angels, any creation.
God is the Creator.
God gives. God does not need cooperation.
We need God's cooperation smile emoticon
Operation, rather.
Only God operates. The rest only watch.
That's what we're made to do: to watch God's works, to say thanks, appreciate, and feel good about ourselves, about God, about all of God's creation, and be happy, really. Give thanks, pray, share the happiness, in giving to others, multiply the hapiness.
Light upon light. Like God says in the Quran.
How sure am I?
I know this.
Do you know there are things? Like pencils, the world, cities, children, mothers.
You know they are. How can sure can you be? 1-100?
I just know this is the truth.
Now do I remember it all the time, is the question.
Like when I'm mean, I'm forgetting, clearly.
When I was unable to answer your question, it was because of forgetting God, in a way.
When we know, we do things on time. smile emoticon May God bless you, Tom smile emoticon
5/12 TG - Thanks SKT, I appreciate your good wishes. Your faith seems absolute when you say that you know these things are true. I appreciate that, and yet I'm still left wondering how you know these things. It is true that I know that there are things like pencils, trees, the world... or at least I'm pretty certain ☺️ but I can see them, touch them, interact with them. Any beliefs I have I want them to be true beliefs. I meet people of many different beliefs. How can I know what is a true belief?
Good fortune be upon you and your family SKT. Now and always.
Good fortune be upon you and your family SKT. Now and always.
********************************
It was after this question that he posted a response that he later deleted. I’m not sure if I should reach out to him or let it go if he does not respond back. Any thoughts? Constructive criticism?
********************************
SKT has returned the discussion continues.
********************************
5/17 SKT - How do we know the truth?
Let me share with you something, from a movie:
********************************
SKT has returned the discussion continues.
********************************
5/17 SKT - How do we know the truth?
Let me share with you something, from a movie:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IJffBsSg1kU (What is True - a clip from the Passion of the Christ"
TG - 5/19 - I like the movie very much. I've watched it (The Passion of Christ) a couple of times. I don't know where you live, but I think that if we lived closer we could be friends.
SKT, I want to recognize the truth when I hear it. I want to have true beliefs. But I honestly don't know if I can. How can I recognize the truth? What does the truth look like?
SKT - 5/22
Tom Gibson sure we are friends. Just need to meet up.
It works. Truth works.
Untruth won't.
Example: washing hands. At least before eating. Keeps germs away, tummy stays normal, no bugs get in.
Cleanliness works. It is called half of faith.
Patience works. Struggle works.
Love works. When we love our children, they grow up to be good. Or our neighbours. Friends. Family. Animals. Plants. Earth. Everything. Even inanimate objects.
The prophet Muhammad had an earthen pot, that had it's own name. I think the comb too, had a name.
Nothing is unconscious.
Animals cried when he died. They still cry when someone who loves them, dies.
The whole system works.
It's made of truth/love/reality.
It is called a one word thing in arabic: haqq.
The truth is what is real, it is felt as love.
Like sunlight. Is seen with the eyes, felt by the skin as warmth.
Truth is felt as love.
It is that which works.
Nothing else can, because the system is built out of it. We are truth/love/real.
In the sense that essentially, we are that.
Now we forget that, and there's this illusion of separated-ness of things, so things are jumbled up.
When we 'die', we see clearly how we were all one all along.
Then the killer gets his pain. The adulterer who used a woman, feels the pain just as if it was his mother.
Things get clear to see.
Only in the short term, can the world deceive us: the thief can think he got away with it, so can the murderer, or the liar.
But in the longer term, it doesn't work. Sometimes it can take centuries for us to see problems
slavery doesn't work. How it hurts the slave master, that can take centuries to unfold.
For the see-er, it's direct. It's just plain wrong. He wouldn't do it to his own brother, that's why.
Racism is wrong; does't work.
Sexism too.
Thinking women are inferior, or for that matter men.
But it's also wrong to think women should do have to do heavy manual labour, or that men should have babies, like deliver them.
So the truth works, only. The rest can't.
The illusion of separated-ness makes us think it's i versus the rest of the world.
With few friends. Little family maybe. And then lots and lots, billions , of 'others'.
Then we can get mean towards those 'others', because they're not ourselves
This illusion is what causes people to forget the truth:
From Allah WE come, and to Allah WE return.
Truth.
We are the truth. Allah breathed of His spirit into us. We are made of the truth, to witness it.
To feel the love: the presence of God. To see the face of God, wherever we turn.
Now to come to the untruths, the lies:
Idols : come from forgetting One God. Idols are the pursuit of money as an end in itself, of power, prestige, 'chicks', anything.
The end is only God.
One has to be aware.
Trinity is an idol. They made it up somewhere in Turkey. After Jesus was taken up.
Jewish racism is an idol in itself.
Buddhists don't know that consciousness is an effect of God, not God Himself. God is beyond these mere one words that can be understood by the mind. God is felt as love, but God is the Source of love.
God is not mere consciousness.
Consciousness is what comes from God.
God is the Source of all. In one word, another arabic one: samadh. The Source from Whom all comes, and Who does not need anything from anyone.
God only is.
Creation is by design separated-ness. You and I are separate, but this is an illusion.
Because we are all gonna be wrapped up.
This is a very nice phase where Allah shows us, Himself. In creation: in each other: mother in her child, child in her mother, both in their environment.
All belongs to One, comes from One, goes to One.
Truth. Love. Reality.
It works. Truth works.
Untruth won't.
Example: washing hands. At least before eating. Keeps germs away, tummy stays normal, no bugs get in.
Cleanliness works. It is called half of faith.
Patience works. Struggle works.
Love works. When we love our children, they grow up to be good. Or our neighbours. Friends. Family. Animals. Plants. Earth. Everything. Even inanimate objects.
The prophet Muhammad had an earthen pot, that had it's own name. I think the comb too, had a name.
Nothing is unconscious.
Animals cried when he died. They still cry when someone who loves them, dies.
The whole system works.
It's made of truth/love/reality.
It is called a one word thing in arabic: haqq.
The truth is what is real, it is felt as love.
Like sunlight. Is seen with the eyes, felt by the skin as warmth.
Truth is felt as love.
It is that which works.
Nothing else can, because the system is built out of it. We are truth/love/real.
In the sense that essentially, we are that.
Now we forget that, and there's this illusion of separated-ness of things, so things are jumbled up.
When we 'die', we see clearly how we were all one all along.
Then the killer gets his pain. The adulterer who used a woman, feels the pain just as if it was his mother.
Things get clear to see.
Only in the short term, can the world deceive us: the thief can think he got away with it, so can the murderer, or the liar.
But in the longer term, it doesn't work. Sometimes it can take centuries for us to see problems
slavery doesn't work. How it hurts the slave master, that can take centuries to unfold.
For the see-er, it's direct. It's just plain wrong. He wouldn't do it to his own brother, that's why.
Racism is wrong; does't work.
Sexism too.
Thinking women are inferior, or for that matter men.
But it's also wrong to think women should do have to do heavy manual labour, or that men should have babies, like deliver them.
So the truth works, only. The rest can't.
The illusion of separated-ness makes us think it's i versus the rest of the world.
With few friends. Little family maybe. And then lots and lots, billions , of 'others'.
Then we can get mean towards those 'others', because they're not ourselves
This illusion is what causes people to forget the truth:
From Allah WE come, and to Allah WE return.
Truth.
We are the truth. Allah breathed of His spirit into us. We are made of the truth, to witness it.
To feel the love: the presence of God. To see the face of God, wherever we turn.
Now to come to the untruths, the lies:
Idols : come from forgetting One God. Idols are the pursuit of money as an end in itself, of power, prestige, 'chicks', anything.
The end is only God.
One has to be aware.
Trinity is an idol. They made it up somewhere in Turkey. After Jesus was taken up.
Jewish racism is an idol in itself.
Buddhists don't know that consciousness is an effect of God, not God Himself. God is beyond these mere one words that can be understood by the mind. God is felt as love, but God is the Source of love.
God is not mere consciousness.
Consciousness is what comes from God.
God is the Source of all. In one word, another arabic one: samadh. The Source from Whom all comes, and Who does not need anything from anyone.
God only is.
Creation is by design separated-ness. You and I are separate, but this is an illusion.
Because we are all gonna be wrapped up.
This is a very nice phase where Allah shows us, Himself. In creation: in each other: mother in her child, child in her mother, both in their environment.
All belongs to One, comes from One, goes to One.
Truth. Love. Reality.
TG 5/26
I've been thinking about what you said about truth being what works. I always come back to how do we know what is true (or what works). If we believe that washing our hands will remove germs, we can test it. We can count the number of germs from sample areas before and after washing and compare. But how do we test other beliefs? How do we test the assertion, for instance, that nothing is unconscious? Can we rely on an assertion or belief being true because it feels right? Can we think of example of things that once seemed really true to us but later turned out not to be? How do we test competing truth claims that feel right beyond a shadow of a doubt by the people who hold them?
I've been thinking about what you said about truth being what works. I always come back to how do we know what is true (or what works). If we believe that washing our hands will remove germs, we can test it. We can count the number of germs from sample areas before and after washing and compare. But how do we test other beliefs? How do we test the assertion, for instance, that nothing is unconscious? Can we rely on an assertion or belief being true because it feels right? Can we think of example of things that once seemed really true to us but later turned out not to be? How do we test competing truth claims that feel right beyond a shadow of a doubt by the people who hold them?
New Commenter (Ex US Navy Man) - 5/26
SKT,
So by you own logic, if one cannot prove any particular point in their argument, none of the argument has any validity?
"If you can't back it up, know that the rest is non-sense too."
If true, everything you've already stated and anything you say in the future is "non-sense too".
So by you own logic, if one cannot prove any particular point in their argument, none of the argument has any validity?
"If you can't back it up, know that the rest is non-sense too."
If true, everything you've already stated and anything you say in the future is "non-sense too".
SKT - 5/27
Tom Gibson knowing helps.
Knowledge is good.
Knowing what's inside of things is good to do.
Knowing that things, like everything else, are made up of things.
And everything is made up of similar things.
Atoms, quarks, electrons, neutrons, all that energy and frequency and stuff about which we can only invent new words to describe them.
It's good to know everything is made up of the same things.
Like they're lined up and stacked in groups in the periodic table.
Same atoms, energy types and configurations, make up the brain of a monkey, an earthen pot, a flower petal, prions, nucleic acids, organelles, cells, everything. Stars, galaxies.
It's all the same design. The Designer is One.
This would have been more difficult to see in earlier times, when we didn't know what's inside of things.
Now we do, it's easier to know.
Germs are bad and can be tested, adultery is bad and can be tested (gives germs, takes out babies, time, heart),
Idolatry is bad, can be tested (each idol makes it's own group of followers, making castes, groups, breaks people, plus they're false),
God is good, can be tested: no one else can raise the sun every morning, or make us breatge every minute, or make us alive again after giving us 'death'.
All truths are testable.
One tests with the eyes.
One sees.
Knows.
Knowing is good.
We are made to know, by seeing. Testing in our minds.
Abraham was Abraham because he was a tester.
Tested the sun : is it my God? Nope.
Is it the moon etc? Nope.
Then my God is the Maker of it all, of everything, because He does not go down like the sun, or like the moon.
Basic inference.
Non-racist, neutral, want-to-know kinda thinking.
That's what makes us human, and representatives of God on earth.
We want to know, we are made to know God.
Every single experience is a test of God.
Your seeing the screen is made possible by God every single instant.
Tests. Each positive for God.
Fake things are ruled out.
Is widow burning good? No. Doesn't work. How do we know? Test it.
Is racism good?
No. Never worked. Knowing this is easy. Has been tested.
There is only one true belief, truth.
Knowledge is good.
Knowing what's inside of things is good to do.
Knowing that things, like everything else, are made up of things.
And everything is made up of similar things.
Atoms, quarks, electrons, neutrons, all that energy and frequency and stuff about which we can only invent new words to describe them.
It's good to know everything is made up of the same things.
Like they're lined up and stacked in groups in the periodic table.
Same atoms, energy types and configurations, make up the brain of a monkey, an earthen pot, a flower petal, prions, nucleic acids, organelles, cells, everything. Stars, galaxies.
It's all the same design. The Designer is One.
This would have been more difficult to see in earlier times, when we didn't know what's inside of things.
Now we do, it's easier to know.
Germs are bad and can be tested, adultery is bad and can be tested (gives germs, takes out babies, time, heart),
Idolatry is bad, can be tested (each idol makes it's own group of followers, making castes, groups, breaks people, plus they're false),
God is good, can be tested: no one else can raise the sun every morning, or make us breatge every minute, or make us alive again after giving us 'death'.
All truths are testable.
One tests with the eyes.
One sees.
Knows.
Knowing is good.
We are made to know, by seeing. Testing in our minds.
Abraham was Abraham because he was a tester.
Tested the sun : is it my God? Nope.
Is it the moon etc? Nope.
Then my God is the Maker of it all, of everything, because He does not go down like the sun, or like the moon.
Basic inference.
Non-racist, neutral, want-to-know kinda thinking.
That's what makes us human, and representatives of God on earth.
We want to know, we are made to know God.
Every single experience is a test of God.
Your seeing the screen is made possible by God every single instant.
Tests. Each positive for God.
Fake things are ruled out.
Is widow burning good? No. Doesn't work. How do we know? Test it.
Is racism good?
No. Never worked. Knowing this is easy. Has been tested.
There is only one true belief, truth.
SKT 5/27 (replying to a Navy Man who broke into the conversation)
read better; everything has been proven.
Open your eyes, put down your racist fears, and read.
We are all friends here.
No one is attacking you.
Read. Breathe. Be well.
TG 5/28
SKT, I'm wondering what you mean by "easier to know". I'm wondering how any of this can help me decide which of the competing truth claims is correct. How does it prove which version of God that different people believe in is true, or that there aren't multiple gods, or that there is no God.
Navy Man- 5/28
SKT, Interesting non-sequitur as there was no reference of an "attack" in my post - certainly none made & none received. A bit defensive are we?
So how about answering. Is everything you've stated now "non sense"? If not, why don't you present some facts? I'll wait.
SKT - 5/28
SKT 5/28
Tom Gibson https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBzAqUIpHCg (Abused dog responds to love for the first time)
When we are hurt, it either gets difficult to think there can be a loving God,
Or it can get perfectly clear that there is.
It gets difficult when we take people to be representatives of God, which we are.
Then we expect kindness. If we're hurt, we lose God. We get mean. We hurt others too, or just sit silently as disbelievers.
Broken homes do this. Wars. Famines. Disease and suffering: hurts us, and we lose hope.
However, sometimes, we get hurt, and we find out there HAS to be a God, because people are people, and they are not God.
God is so kind God even lets criminals have a good time here, letting them have fun, only to catch them as soon as they have left their bodies.
This happens to smart people, chosen ones: who see God in bad times, when they're hurt, as well as their good times.
We can describe things, but one has to live it to believe it.
If we observe our minds closely, we get both kinds of thoughts, and we instinctively know which one is the deeper reality.
It's not an argumentative exercise; getting to God is an emotional thing. That kind of argumentation.
Why did you not love me? Why was I not loved and cared for?
Who cares about atoms and stars?
It's all about me. Where was my God when I needed him most?
Or that child dying in Africa or America or wherever.
It's an argument of lovers, who know they needed love.
We humans have that, God shows us now, and God will show us clearly when we go forward.
A saint once said, 'if the veil between God and I were to be torn apart, it would not increase my faith in Him one bit'
He saw God's love in everything.
God is the truth. One God.
It's everywhere. Truth is everywhere. Fact is everywhere. Just see. Everything is a proof of God.
Name anything that is not. I challenge you: name one thing, event in history, something from your life, anything, thatshows you there is no God.
Even the racist xenophobic violent genocidal profile picture you've put up, is being let there by God.
God is letting you. Or else the US navy would have been thrown into hell with all it's posters for all the innocent people it kills. you felt attacked, so you took a non-sensical position.
It's everywhere. Truth is everywhere. Fact is everywhere. Just see. Everything is a proof of God.
Name anything that is not. I challenge you: name one thing, event in history, something from your life, anything, thatshows you there is no God.
Even the racist xenophobic violent genocidal profile picture you've put up, is being let there by God.
God is letting you. Or else the US navy would have been thrown into hell with all it's posters for all the innocent people it kills.
read better; everything has been proven.
Open your eyes, put down your racist fears, and read.
We are all friends here.
No one is attacking you.
Read. Breathe. Be well.
TG 5/28
SKT, I'm wondering what you mean by "easier to know". I'm wondering how any of this can help me decide which of the competing truth claims is correct. How does it prove which version of God that different people believe in is true, or that there aren't multiple gods, or that there is no God.
Navy Man- 5/28
SKT, Interesting non-sequitur as there was no reference of an "attack" in my post - certainly none made & none received. A bit defensive are we?
So how about answering. Is everything you've stated now "non sense"? If not, why don't you present some facts? I'll wait.
SKT - 5/28
Tom Gibson easier to know with a microscope and telescope and DNA structure unraveling and the measurements of stars and atoms and the analysis of material things:
It is easier to know we are all made up of the same.
The design is the same.
Only the configurations, the features are different.
It's called the illusion of being separate.
It does not exist for people who know basic things.
But most of us forget.
Remembering is good.
Truth is one. From the One, to the One.
Cannot be more than one, or we'd have the problem of who's the boss?
The boss is the boss by definition.
The second one would have to be subordinate, so can't be boss.
Plus, the boss makes. The rest take.
Boss is Creator, the rest is creation.
Basic.
No God is just stupid. Belongs to someone who doesn't see, doesn't think.
Deaf, blind and just really really dumb.
The thing is, it's a love thing.
Only when you feel loved, will you accept that it's okay being loved by God. A bit like the dog in this video:
([he is referring to a link in his next post).It is easier to know we are all made up of the same.
The design is the same.
Only the configurations, the features are different.
It's called the illusion of being separate.
It does not exist for people who know basic things.
But most of us forget.
Remembering is good.
Truth is one. From the One, to the One.
Cannot be more than one, or we'd have the problem of who's the boss?
The boss is the boss by definition.
The second one would have to be subordinate, so can't be boss.
Plus, the boss makes. The rest take.
Boss is Creator, the rest is creation.
Basic.
No God is just stupid. Belongs to someone who doesn't see, doesn't think.
Deaf, blind and just really really dumb.
The thing is, it's a love thing.
Only when you feel loved, will you accept that it's okay being loved by God. A bit like the dog in this video:
SKT 5/28
Tom Gibson https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aBzAqUIpHCg (Abused dog responds to love for the first time)
When we are hurt, it either gets difficult to think there can be a loving God,
Or it can get perfectly clear that there is.
It gets difficult when we take people to be representatives of God, which we are.
Then we expect kindness. If we're hurt, we lose God. We get mean. We hurt others too, or just sit silently as disbelievers.
Broken homes do this. Wars. Famines. Disease and suffering: hurts us, and we lose hope.
However, sometimes, we get hurt, and we find out there HAS to be a God, because people are people, and they are not God.
God is so kind God even lets criminals have a good time here, letting them have fun, only to catch them as soon as they have left their bodies.
This happens to smart people, chosen ones: who see God in bad times, when they're hurt, as well as their good times.
We can describe things, but one has to live it to believe it.
If we observe our minds closely, we get both kinds of thoughts, and we instinctively know which one is the deeper reality.
It's not an argumentative exercise; getting to God is an emotional thing. That kind of argumentation.
Why did you not love me? Why was I not loved and cared for?
Who cares about atoms and stars?
It's all about me. Where was my God when I needed him most?
Or that child dying in Africa or America or wherever.
It's an argument of lovers, who know they needed love.
We humans have that, God shows us now, and God will show us clearly when we go forward.
A saint once said, 'if the veil between God and I were to be torn apart, it would not increase my faith in Him one bit'
He saw God's love in everything.
God is the truth. One God.
SKT 5/18 - responding to the Navy Man
you felt attacked, so you took a non-sensical position.
It's everywhere. Truth is everywhere. Fact is everywhere. Just see. Everything is a proof of God.
Name anything that is not. I challenge you: name one thing, event in history, something from your life, anything, thatshows you there is no God.
Even the racist xenophobic violent genocidal profile picture you've put up, is being let there by God.
God is letting you. Or else the US navy would have been thrown into hell with all it's posters for all the innocent people it kills.
It's everywhere. Truth is everywhere. Fact is everywhere. Just see. Everything is a proof of God.
Name anything that is not. I challenge you: name one thing, event in history, something from your life, anything, thatshows you there is no God.
Even the racist xenophobic violent genocidal profile picture you've put up, is being let there by God.
God is letting you. Or else the US navy would have been thrown into hell with all it's posters for all the innocent people it kills.
New Commenter 5/29
you felt attacked, so you took a non-sensical position.
It's everywhere. Truth is everywhere. Fact is everywhere. Just see. Everything is a proof of God.
Name anything that is not. I challenge you: name one thing, event in history, something from your life, anything, thatshows you there is no God.
Even the racist xenophobic violent genocidal profile picture you've put up, is being let there by God.
God is letting you. Or else the US navy would have been thrown into hell with all it's posters for all the innocent people it kills. you felt attacked, so you took a non-sensical position.
It's everywhere. Truth is everywhere. Fact is everywhere. Just see. Everything is a proof of God.
Name anything that is not. I challenge you: name one thing, event in history, something from your life, anything, thatshows you there is no God.
Even the racist xenophobic violent genocidal profile picture you've put up, is being let there by God.
God is letting you. Or else the US navy would have been thrown into hell with all it's posters for all the innocent people it kills. you felt attacked, so you took a non-sensical position.
It's everywhere. Truth is everywhere. Fact is everywhere. Just see. Everything is a proof of God.
Name anything that is not. I challenge you: name one thing, event in history, something from your life, anything, thatshows you there is no God.
Even the racist xenophobic violent genocidal profile picture you've put up, is being let there by God.
God is letting you. Or else the US navy would have been thrown into hell with all it's posters for all the innocent people it kills. you felt attacked, so you took a non-sensical position.
It's everywhere. Truth is everywhere. Fact is everywhere. Just see. Everything is a proof of God.
Name anything that is not. I challenge you: name one thing, event in history, something from your life, anything, thatshows you there is no God.
Even the racist xenophobic violent genocidal profile picture you've put up, is being let there by God.
God is letting you. Or else the US navy would have been thrown into hell with all it's posters for all the innocent people it kills.
Navy Man 5/29
*chuckle* So we can add clairvoyant to your list of party favors? You are rather amusing telling others how they "feel".
Of course you're not terribly surprising as you choose the same tactic as every other zealot - irrespective of which religion they claim to represent.
You also choose to attack rather than discuss when threatened which, after spending more time than I care to remember, I've found is more prevalent with those of the Muslim faith.
You practice deception and redirection while looking for the weak to recruit and taking advantage of the Rights the West has enshrined in our laws & culture. You speak in platitudes reminiscent of a bad movie kung fu master in hopes of a nibble from some poor soul who's lost their way.
You become transparent because of your attacks & inability to answer honest questions. Yes, I know your kind and I will always take great joy in letting you show what you truly are and laughing at you the entire time. I, like many others, will also continue to do what is required to defend against you and your ilk.
قد عذاب الجحيم يكون لك للمشاركة مع محمد وبقية أتباعه
كافر
TG - 5/29 -
Unfortunately the conversation has been hijacked and is now headed in a different direction than I wanted to focus on. As I think I said early on, this is not the best venue for conversations of this nature. I'm not sure that it is possible to continue on track, but I will try one last time.
SKT. I want to make sure that I understand what you were saying it your last post to me. If I understand correctly, you're saying that the way to knowledge of God is not through deductive arguments (or deductive logic). It's through emotion and instinctively knowing the truth. It is like two lovers who just know that they love each other. Is this what you're saying? I don't want to misrepresent you.
SKT - 5/29 responding to NW
you have not asked one question as yet. All you said is, 'prove to me if what you say is right'. To which is said, everything is a proof in itself, you just need to think, without feeling a part of a tribe or an ilk.Your profile photo shows just how tribalistic you have been .You know the US navy is a part of the US armed forces, the forces of evil in the world, basically. Do you know that or do you not? That is my first question to you. If you answer it, right, then we will talk about God and higher truths. First, get your world right.
SKT 5/29
Tom Gibson yes that's what I'm saying. It;s okay to misrepresent, I will correct any misrepresentation. We're in the cockpit, no hijacker can hijack.
SKT 5/29
Tom Gibson not even a miracle will make someone see God. Even if a camel came out of a stone. Deductive logic itself is given as a gift. SOme people cannot see the sun cannot rise on it;s own, nor can we. And that we're both connected, all is. Basically,intelligence, seeing, heart, feeling, is given. Hitler didn't care for children, nor did george bush,nor does our hijacker, it seems.All because of lack of deductive logic/reasoning. They just don;t see. But I have high hopes of my hijacker guy. It;s just a phase for him. He will know better. SO yes, it's not an emotion or something instinctive, or a logical deduction, it's a gift, a given. When you;re given, you can jot the points, ake the deduction, feel the feeling, have the instinct, call it what you have to. Deduction is in the mind, so is instinct. It;s all brain cell connections right?Instinct, logic, language, hunger, thought, all.
TG 5/30
I like your observation about how some people will never see miracles. I was amused to read about the camel. I have to say, however, that if most people saw a camel coming out of a stone they would recognize it as a miracle, especially if it was observed by many other people so they know that they weren’t going crazy or hallucinating. I do recognize, however, the deeper point that you’re making and it is a fair one. We have to make sure that we’re open to other possibilities and that we aren’t so stuck in our own mindset that we fail to see things that we otherwise would have. I recognize that I am sometimes guilty of this; perhaps more than sometimes. It is difficult to get beyond ideas and beliefs that family, friends, culture and past experience have instilled in us. I struggle with it. Perhaps it’s this realization that makes me ask the type of questions that I do.
Reading your last comment I see you say that the ability to recognize the truth is a gift. And that this gift enables us to make deductions that we can feel are correct, that we know are correct. As you said previously, it is like two lovers who just know the truth of their love.
I can’t help thinking of a time years ago when I was traveling in India. I was taking a break from driving and relaxing by the road when I was approached by a very nice gentlman. It didn’t take long before he started talking about his temple and how much love he felt there. His face was absolutely beaming as he told me about his god Ganesh and how much Ganesh had given him.
I am also reminded of a Christian girl that I knew in college. She always had a gentle smile on her face and was perhaps the most serene person I’ve ever met. Her calmness and radiance in the security and joy of her faith was a very remarkable thing to see.
I have been told by both Hindus and Christians that you have to be open to faith. Both have said that there are miracles all around confirming their faith. Both say that sadly some people have closed themselves off and will never experience them and thus never learn the truth. Both say that you already have the knowledge within you to either know, or to learn, of the truth of their faith. If Hindus, Christians, Muslims and others are saying these things, can we really be sure that such statements are helpful in getting us to the truth?
Sadly, do we not all know of couples who felt absolutely sure of their love only to later painfully learn otherwise?
TG - 6/5
SKT - Thank you for taking the time in talking to me. I enjoyed our conversation. I think that it is time to move on from this conversation and I won't be monitoring this thread anymore. Feel free to reach out to me via Facebook if you want. Again, thank you.
SKT 6/5
Tom Gibson i have the answer; sorry for the delay.
Are you here still?
SKT 6/5
om Gibson ganesh is the one who looks like an elephant, no?
The wise elephant.
The elephant has to come from Somewhere
the penis too. That belongs to shiva. Even that is an idol.
This is idolatry, for those who don't know enough.
Can God be felt still? Sure.
That's the whole point. They don't need the ganesha or the shiva linga.
It only creates division, and is a lie basically: the ganesha nor the linga made the person praying to them.
I have felt very good in churches. That does not mean it is the trinity doing that for me.
I know the trinity is wrong. I knoe they are chanting a lie, essentially, when they say Mary is the mother of God.
That does not prevent God from giving love to creation.
We feel love, even when we get it wrong.
Temporarily. In the long run, getting it wrong hurts.
We make new rules. Like priests can't marry.
Like castes.
These come from idolatry.
When you don't know God is One, you follow the made up one . Or ones.
Each with it's own rules.
It is this idolatry that humans do not like.
By nature. We know there is one God; it cannot be three or the penis of someone or an elephant head.
One.
So yeah, God is gracious even to mass murderers. Even Obama gets to dance and smile and do all that.
God won't give an electric current each time we disobey. At least not in the fingers.
In the mind, we know when we do wrong. Provided we know right from wrong.
Many idolators don't even know what's right. It's an education problem.
And it was upon the muslims to educate those who didn't know.
Of course you're not terribly surprising as you choose the same tactic as every other zealot - irrespective of which religion they claim to represent.
You also choose to attack rather than discuss when threatened which, after spending more time than I care to remember, I've found is more prevalent with those of the Muslim faith.
You practice deception and redirection while looking for the weak to recruit and taking advantage of the Rights the West has enshrined in our laws & culture. You speak in platitudes reminiscent of a bad movie kung fu master in hopes of a nibble from some poor soul who's lost their way.
You become transparent because of your attacks & inability to answer honest questions. Yes, I know your kind and I will always take great joy in letting you show what you truly are and laughing at you the entire time. I, like many others, will also continue to do what is required to defend against you and your ilk.
قد عذاب الجحيم يكون لك للمشاركة مع محمد وبقية أتباعه
كافر
TG - 5/29 -
Unfortunately the conversation has been hijacked and is now headed in a different direction than I wanted to focus on. As I think I said early on, this is not the best venue for conversations of this nature. I'm not sure that it is possible to continue on track, but I will try one last time.
SKT. I want to make sure that I understand what you were saying it your last post to me. If I understand correctly, you're saying that the way to knowledge of God is not through deductive arguments (or deductive logic). It's through emotion and instinctively knowing the truth. It is like two lovers who just know that they love each other. Is this what you're saying? I don't want to misrepresent you.
SKT - 5/29 responding to NW
you have not asked one question as yet. All you said is, 'prove to me if what you say is right'. To which is said, everything is a proof in itself, you just need to think, without feeling a part of a tribe or an ilk.Your profile photo shows just how tribalistic you have been .You know the US navy is a part of the US armed forces, the forces of evil in the world, basically. Do you know that or do you not? That is my first question to you. If you answer it, right, then we will talk about God and higher truths. First, get your world right.
SKT 5/29
Tom Gibson yes that's what I'm saying. It;s okay to misrepresent, I will correct any misrepresentation. We're in the cockpit, no hijacker can hijack.
SKT 5/29
Tom Gibson not even a miracle will make someone see God. Even if a camel came out of a stone. Deductive logic itself is given as a gift. SOme people cannot see the sun cannot rise on it;s own, nor can we. And that we're both connected, all is. Basically,intelligence, seeing, heart, feeling, is given. Hitler didn't care for children, nor did george bush,nor does our hijacker, it seems.All because of lack of deductive logic/reasoning. They just don;t see. But I have high hopes of my hijacker guy. It;s just a phase for him. He will know better. SO yes, it's not an emotion or something instinctive, or a logical deduction, it's a gift, a given. When you;re given, you can jot the points, ake the deduction, feel the feeling, have the instinct, call it what you have to. Deduction is in the mind, so is instinct. It;s all brain cell connections right?Instinct, logic, language, hunger, thought, all.
TG 5/30
I like your observation about how some people will never see miracles. I was amused to read about the camel. I have to say, however, that if most people saw a camel coming out of a stone they would recognize it as a miracle, especially if it was observed by many other people so they know that they weren’t going crazy or hallucinating. I do recognize, however, the deeper point that you’re making and it is a fair one. We have to make sure that we’re open to other possibilities and that we aren’t so stuck in our own mindset that we fail to see things that we otherwise would have. I recognize that I am sometimes guilty of this; perhaps more than sometimes. It is difficult to get beyond ideas and beliefs that family, friends, culture and past experience have instilled in us. I struggle with it. Perhaps it’s this realization that makes me ask the type of questions that I do.
Reading your last comment I see you say that the ability to recognize the truth is a gift. And that this gift enables us to make deductions that we can feel are correct, that we know are correct. As you said previously, it is like two lovers who just know the truth of their love.
I can’t help thinking of a time years ago when I was traveling in India. I was taking a break from driving and relaxing by the road when I was approached by a very nice gentlman. It didn’t take long before he started talking about his temple and how much love he felt there. His face was absolutely beaming as he told me about his god Ganesh and how much Ganesh had given him.
I am also reminded of a Christian girl that I knew in college. She always had a gentle smile on her face and was perhaps the most serene person I’ve ever met. Her calmness and radiance in the security and joy of her faith was a very remarkable thing to see.
I have been told by both Hindus and Christians that you have to be open to faith. Both have said that there are miracles all around confirming their faith. Both say that sadly some people have closed themselves off and will never experience them and thus never learn the truth. Both say that you already have the knowledge within you to either know, or to learn, of the truth of their faith. If Hindus, Christians, Muslims and others are saying these things, can we really be sure that such statements are helpful in getting us to the truth?
Sadly, do we not all know of couples who felt absolutely sure of their love only to later painfully learn otherwise?
TG - 6/5
SKT - Thank you for taking the time in talking to me. I enjoyed our conversation. I think that it is time to move on from this conversation and I won't be monitoring this thread anymore. Feel free to reach out to me via Facebook if you want. Again, thank you.
SKT 6/5
Tom Gibson i have the answer; sorry for the delay.
Are you here still?
SKT 6/5
om Gibson ganesh is the one who looks like an elephant, no?
The wise elephant.
The elephant has to come from Somewhere
the penis too. That belongs to shiva. Even that is an idol.
This is idolatry, for those who don't know enough.
Can God be felt still? Sure.
That's the whole point. They don't need the ganesha or the shiva linga.
It only creates division, and is a lie basically: the ganesha nor the linga made the person praying to them.
I have felt very good in churches. That does not mean it is the trinity doing that for me.
I know the trinity is wrong. I knoe they are chanting a lie, essentially, when they say Mary is the mother of God.
That does not prevent God from giving love to creation.
We feel love, even when we get it wrong.
Temporarily. In the long run, getting it wrong hurts.
We make new rules. Like priests can't marry.
Like castes.
These come from idolatry.
When you don't know God is One, you follow the made up one . Or ones.
Each with it's own rules.
It is this idolatry that humans do not like.
By nature. We know there is one God; it cannot be three or the penis of someone or an elephant head.
One.
So yeah, God is gracious even to mass murderers. Even Obama gets to dance and smile and do all that.
God won't give an electric current each time we disobey. At least not in the fingers.
In the mind, we know when we do wrong. Provided we know right from wrong.
Many idolators don't even know what's right. It's an education problem.
And it was upon the muslims to educate those who didn't know.
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